The Burgundy Runn

The Burgundy Runn’s “Stop!” is, without question, a true classic of the ‘60’s garage band era. Hailing from New Mexico, The ‘Runn were produced by the legendary Lindy Blaskey and part of an incredibly fertile rock and roll scene that will be expertly documented in Alec Palao’s upcoming Ace Records CD releases. Until that time, we’re very pleased to present the recollections of the man that wrote “Stop!”, Dave Schmuck, and bassist Joe Doss.

An Interview with David Schmuck and Joe Doss

60sgaragebands.com (60s): How did you first get interested in music?

Davis Schmuck (DS): I can't remember when I wasn’t interested in music...not because I've always been interested...but because I'm getting so damn old I can't remember what I did last week! Okay…really I was adopted as a baby, and my natural parents were both professional musicians. My adopted parents were not musical, but they exposed me to as much music as I wanted (and they could stand). I started piano lessons at the age of five and sang in the Albuquerque Boys Choir from the same age until I was 13. By the way, that choir bused out to Hollywood and made an album for Columbia records in the mid-‘50's, and had both a regional and national reputation (that’s what the parents told us anyway). I started alto saxophone in the fourth grade, and played it through college. I majored in music at Eastern New Mexico University and have pursued music, in one form or another, all my life.

60s: Was The Burgundy Runn your first band?

DS: Well, I played saxophone in school bands as I was growing up but I'm assuming you mean combos. When I was fifteen, a friend of mine Bob Sturtcman (who later formed The Kreeg) and I started a pop/jazz band with three other classmates. The instrumentation was (now get this)...accordion, two alto saxes, bass and drums and believe it or not - it worked! Bob sang lead and was great on the accordion. I arranged the sax parts to play melodies and support harmonies, and the rhythm section held down the groove. It was too much! We played everything - from Elvis to Brubeck. The band director at our high school took an interest in the group and soon had us working in clubs and doing other gigs around town for the next year and a half. Then I got the 'surf' bug…bad! I always loved close harmony, and just had to be in a surf band so I started playing the bass (so I could sing), and scrounged up four other friends of mine who were equally bitten (two of which later would be in the original Burgundy Runn). That band was your typical lead, rhythm and bass guitar with drums. We did manage to cop the Beach Boys/Jan & Dean/California sound close enough to work parties, dances and a couple of 'quality' gigs at the local car wash! That year the school band was invited to - and marched in - the Rose Bowl parade. We were playing “Surfin’ USA” all over town; meanwhile, the school 'jocks' won every state championship except football (no kidding) but the band dudes had all the chicks. It was a blast!

60s: Where and when was The Burgundy Runn formed?

Joe Doss (JD): Maynard and I formed the band in 1963. Our first heroes were The Beach Boys, and Maynard and I sanded down our guitars and painted them white. We had some drummer named Cliff and a singer I don't remember. We tried girl singers, rhythm guitar players, and even had a steel player for a while. We went through tons of drummers and singers but the band didn't really take hold until Schmuck and Goodnow joined.

DS: I first heard of the band in the winter of 1965. I was a freshman in college and home on Christmas break. I ran into Doug Hensley, the drummer for the surf band I had in high school, and he told me he and fellow surf band guitarist Harold Smith had just formed a band named The Burgundy Runn with Bob Maynard and Joe Doss. We had known Maynard in high school and had jammed with him some, so the only one I wasn't familiar with was Joe Doss. I went back to school and didn't hear or know a thing about the group until I came home in May.

I got a call from Doug saying Harold had to leave town for the summer and would I be interested in getting together with them and hearing what it sounded like? They were working pretty steady and wanted to keep the band going through the summer. I said, “sure”. Well, we all liked what happened and that’s when I joined the group. We worked through the summer gigging and trying to tighten things up, but never really could get the sound and feel we wanted. That’s when we landed Dave Goodnow for the rhythm section. Dave had been the drummer for a wildly popular band named The Pallbearers, but they were all quite a bit older than he was. They started a tour, somewhere, and had to replace him because he was still in high school. Well, we had used Dave as a substitute drummer a time or two, and had jammed with him before and really liked what he brought to the group so we replaced poor Doug with Dave, and that’s when the band really took off. The personnel never changed from that point on until we called it quits.

Joe Doss: bass guitar and cynical remarks; Bob Maynard: lead guitar and vocals; Dave Goodnow: drums and vocals; Dave Schmuck: guitar and lead vocals.

60s: Do you know who named the band and why?

DS: I think Joe Doss. He was the 'wordy' one of the group.

JD: We originally called the group The Outsiders, but when the song "Time Won't Let Me" came out by a band of the same name, we had to change it. I was drinking, illegally of course, Burgundy wine. We liked the sound of the word, so I looked up the history and found out some raiders from some other country in the 1700s went through there looting, killing, etc. We figured, 'like a beer run...only a Burgundy run'. We added the second 'n' just to be different.

60s: Did The Burgundy Runn have a manager?

DS: We gigged through the summer and towards fall and school time we signed with Lindy Blaskey Productions. Lindy had been a main stay around the area scene for a few years performing-wise, and had started his own production company. He claimed he could keep us working and damned if he didn't. It got so good I decided to lie out a year from the university, make some money and see what would happen. The problem was...Vietnam.

Anyway, Blaskey really did do quite a bit for the group: Promoting, booking, and producing the record. He wanted to refine our sound and image though, and in the end that may have been our downfall. Being a businessman he naturally wanted us to go in the directions he was familiar with, and that had worked in the past. But our style and sound was different, and that’s what made us popular. For instance, he was always after me to take a stage name, and dump the 'Schmuck' stigma; had he only known what a big thing 'Punk' would become, and all the wild un-cool names of the performers, he would have begged me to change my middle name to "The"!

60s: Were did the group primarily gig?

DS: We played high school dances, clubs, and parties. We played at the University a lot...anywhere they had electricity.

60s: What about local teen clubs?

DS: Oh yeah. There were a few of them, but the most popular teen club was Little Beaver Town (you can guess what all the guys called it). The local R&R radio station KQEO ran it, and we played there a lot. Another one named Carnaby 66 opened towards the end of the Burgundy's “Run”. We played there a few times, but Beaver Town was the hot spot. It was out at the edge of town next to the mountains, and located in kind of an old barn style wooden building. It was a big place with a huge stage and a balcony with a second stage, and it could hold tons of kids. We did a gig there one night with The Knickerbockers. When they walked in, they looked around kind of in a daze and one said, "Shit...I thought we made it big?!” We all laughed like hell at that, because we were thinking the same thing...about them...but it was a fun place to play. You get 1000 screaming teenagers all boxed up and feed 'em some rock & roll you’re gonna see and hear some action! They had rent-a-cops on patrol, but a fight would break out nearly every night. Of course the band had to keep playing until they broke it up; one night we had to play “Gloria” for about thirty minutes. I hated that song from then on.

60s: What was the Albuquerque rock and roll scene like in the '60's?

DS: It was pretty wild, I guess, like a lot of other cities at the time. Those times just seemed to bring out creativity and good times for all. There were quite a few good bands around town in those days for the kids to follow: The Pallbearers, The Striders, The Monkey Men, The 'Runn, The Morticians, and The Kreeg - just to name a few - and there were a lot more. There was also a popular all girl band, The FeeBeez, who were very good. The 'Runn and The 'Beez were very tight with each other back then. I dated one of two sisters in the group, and Maynard dated the other. But also, the two bands just liked each other and hung out together a lot. The 'Beez were together for years and played all over the southwest and up and down the California coast. They were just great girls and musicians. I still think of them fondly. Groups in the area started to do some recording, mostly covers. The Striders had a record released nationally, and that got all the bands jazzed that they could do it, too, but the 'Runn's two songs and Bob Sturtcman's "Impressin’" with The Kreeg were about the only original tunes I recall being recorded around then. Most of the bands around town then all knew each other and we'd jam together sometimes, and personnel would switch around among the groups occasionally. Blaskey had a popular band back then, but disbanded it to follow his other music business pursuits. He could see he'd make more 'do-re-me' if he had all of us working for him, but he really did do a lot for the scene in those days. He was much more of a heads up businessman than the rest of us, but don't forget we were all just a bunch of damn kids…and getting paid for doing what we'd be doing anyway.

60s: How far was the band's "touring" territory?

DS: (Laughing) From Tijeras Canyon, clear out to West Central Avenue! Don't forget, three of us were still in high school but we did play out of town some as I said. We'd play gigs at other city's school dances and proms, and some clubs. One small town club in northern New Mexico I remember well. They had an elevated stage with a chicken-wire cage around it - You know, like in the Blues Brothers flick - and a stage guard, armed with an automatic rifle! I'm not making this up! We thought, “shit, what the hell’s going to happen when four long haired hippies take the stage?” but, luckily it proved to be a quiet evening and not a single shot was fired. There were all knife fights that night (no…just kidding).

60s: Did The Burgundy Runn participate in any battle of the bands?

DS: We didn't 'battle' much - we were really too busy playing paying gigs. The band was already fairly well established when I joined the group but I remember a weekend trip we took to west Texas that we played in a battle. We played last and there were two other really tight and solid groups there that night. I don't recall their names but after we heard them we thought we'd be checking the couches for spare change to eat breakfast! We did win and got paid a percentage of the gate, but I remember we raised a big stink when we got there and learned it wasn't the 'sure ‘nuff' paying gig we were told it would be so there might have been a little “Texas Toss” there.

(INTERVIEWER’S NOTE: The November 1966 issue of The Lance a battle that took place on October 27th and 28th at the Highland High School (New Mexico gym). There were twenty groups that participated. The Burgundy Runn did not place in the top three. The winner was The Definats, followed by The Sheltons and The Creepy Crawlers. Other participating bands included The Boiling Urge, Kreeg, Bits and Pieces, Bounty Hunters, Jacobs, Just Us Girls, Deacons, Court Jesters, Sleepers, Voddz, and The Chob!)

60s: How would you describe the band's sound? What bands influenced you?

DS: Hmmm…at first we were pretty much a copy band. We had to play dances, and what seemed to make you popular and kept the gigs coming was playing music that people liked to hear and dance to. So we did a lot of Beatles, Byrds, Beau Brummels, and Hollies; you know, the stuff that was on the radio, but usually the stuff that had tight vocal harmony. We all sang ('cept Doss, and he talked a lot!) and loved close harmony. The people responded and it was fun, but we wanted a sound that was different than everyone else. When Goodnow joined the group, the sound of the same stuff we'd been playing got driven more and was super tight! We opened for The Buffalo Springfield one night and were blown away by their sound; a month later we opened for The Seeds and liked their raw, driving approach. They were two completely different styles...and we thought, “why not put 'em together somehow?” We started experimenting more with rhythms and outside arrangements and started working on some of our own tunes - close harmony punctuated by that raw, driving feel...and (fueled by a few six packs) worked up a sound that was in-between. It was unheard before (most said, “best leave it that way” - including Blaskey). In the end we compromised. In retrospect, we should have stuck to our “Gunns”.

60s: How popular locally did The Burgundy Runn become?

DS: Pretty damned popular, but that could be said about a handful of the bands then. We were able to work every weekend and sometimes during the week. We played out of town also, and some of those gigs were the best paying. We could make more money in two nights than we could working a five day a week job. There were more popular groups in town, but most were real pros. When we started performing some of our “outside” stuff, things cooled down. I mean, like…Maynard would write songs that would change keys about every other measure, or be atonal, period. Well, no matter how strong the groove is, you’re going to loose the audience. We'd launch into one of his concoctions on stage and people would just stop and stare at us like we all had two heads and three arms. So things started to get bumpy down that road. We'd argue endlessly about “creativity vs. appeal” and “selling out”. The fact was, we just needed to tweak the style a little more, keep it melodic, and then deliver it like we meant it!

60s: The ‘Runn signed with the Lavette Booking Agency. Where was the single recorded, at John Wagner Studios?

DS: Yep, John Wagner was the recording engineer and Blasky produced. I remember quite a bit (about the session)...and not all of it was fun.

When we signed with Blasky it was understood that we would record sometime, as we already had a backer to pay for the session. He was a highly successful lawyer in town by the name of Gil Shaffer, who had heard the 'Runn one night and approached us about recording. Blasky wanted us to do a cover, but we insisted on doing our own material. I had written a handful of songs my freshman year at college that I thought we might be able to adapt to our style, but we all agreed that to be fair, we'd do one of mine and one that the other three members would write. I played through the tunes I had in mind, and we all thought “Stop!” was the best choice for our sound. I had written that tune in a fit of angry frustration when I received a 'dear john' letter from my girlfriend about five months into my first year of college. But, it really fit our style with that rhythmic juxtaposition of the accents on - 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & - against the straight 4/4 beat of the bass, followed by all the other raggedy two against three gunshot accents. Doss and Goodnow could really drive that groove when they were inspired. There was also another essential ingredient to that song that got completely left out on the recorded version...but I'll get to that in a bit. Anyway, we worked that tune up a while before the studio date and felt pretty comfortable with it.

Well, time passed and the recording date was fast approaching and still no tune from Doss, Goodnow and Maynard. I was really beginning to sweat blood because I thought it would take a good while to arrange the thing once they had it written. Finally, one day before the session, they said they had it done (and wanted to) put it together. We hastily assembled at Doss's house to bang out an arrangement, but what they had was: the words, the basic chord progression and some melody. I thought, “Christ, we're never gonna get this thing done by tomorrow night”, and sure enough we didn't quite make it. We put the thing together five or six ways that night and by about 1:00am or 2:00am decided to sleep on it and work on it again the next day before our 7:00pm session. I don't think any of us slept much that night. We got together again in the afternoon and worked it into a skeleton of an arrangement and headed to the studio.

After we got there and set up everything, we ran through the thing for Blasky while John did the mike adjustments. Lindy had heard us do “Stop!” before and thought we had best use it for the B-side because it was so angry that it wouldn't get much 'air' time. He liked what we had done with “How Far Up Is Down” even if it wasn't polished yet, and felt it should be the A-side...but it took us three hours of our four hour session to get it right and on tape.

We quickly set up and recorded the rhythm track for “Stop!”, and then the vocals. It was now after 11:00pm and listening to what we had down, Blasky was happy and we were out of time. Now, about three weeks before, Maynard and I had gotten together and worked up lead guitar fills that really added power to that song. Previously, Maynard had just played what he felt, and it was good, but we wanted more power. What we cooked up was a raw, distorted, stabbing kinda guitar sound, with the fills delivered like screaming punches. It was great, and added a lot of grit to the tune. So, I thought for sure we'd add the lead guitar track the next day or next week, or sometime. We all assembled at the studio the next day, Gill Shaffer included, and listened to the masters. Sure enough everyone agreed that “How Far Up Is Down” would be the A-side and “Stop!” would be the flip. I just wanted to get that lead guitar part down on “Stop!” though. But...it was decided by the 'businessmen' that it wasn't necessary because it was the B-side! We were pretty upset to say the least.

Years later, when I heard The Chesterfield Kings cover of “Stop!” I was amused that they had chosen to do it the same way. It was hard for me to believe that they didn't hear what was so obvious to me – that the song begs for a slashing, ripping lead! Oh well.

Well, not too long after we released the record, I joined the N.M. Air National Guard so I could continue to alternate school and performing, and not have the draft jumping on my back. When I headed to boot camp, the guys got Harold Smith to sub for me while I was gone. Six weeks later I was back, and the guys informed me Lindy had taken the record out to Hollywood to try and get it released nationally and Kama Sutra had expressed interest in doing just that, but they needed music notation of the tunes first. Lindy called Doss, Doss called the other two guys... but no one knew how to write a lead sheet! So…they decided to wait until I got back so I could do it. I charted them up and contacted Blasky. Lindy said, forget it – it’s too late. They waited about six weeks and decided to let it go. The whole thing smelled funny to me. A few years later I ran into Blasky when he was a producer for Paramount and asked him about that episode: "Was that for real or just bullshit?” He still maintained that it was a done deal, and only the absence of the lead sheets keep it off the (turn)table. Ahhhh, I'm still not sure about that $@&%.

60s: A 1966 issue of The Lance did report that Metric Music in Hollywood offered the Burgundy Runn several songs for possible recording purposes, including some written by Jackie DeShannon.

DS: Ummmm yeah, now that you mention it, it does seem like there were some feelers that came our way via Blasky. I remember we all went over to his apartment and listened to some tapes he brought back with him from L.A., but we didn't feel we could adapt them to our style. We certainly never recorded anything.

60s: Did The Burgundy Runn write many original songs? Were there other originals that were never recorded?

DS: Oh sure, Maynard wrote some of the oddest damn stuff you've ever heard, as I said. I wrote more tunes. Doss was forever composing something. Nothing ever made it onto tape though…until later.

60s: Do any (other) '60's Burgundy Runn recordings exist? Are there any vintage live recordings, or unreleased tracks?

DS: Nary a one that I'm aware of.

60s: Did the band make any local TV appearances?

DS: (Laughing) What the hell 'ya talk'n 'bout!? That was way before moving pictures and TV, man!

60s: What year and why did the band break up?

DS: In the fall of 1967. I went back to school, and Goodnow started college. Doss and Maynard rented an apartment together and continued a bit longer, but it folded. We'd still all get together at their apartment when I'd come home on break, but the band was over. There were no hard feelings or anything, (we were) just going different directions. We've all remained friends, then and now.

60s: Did you join or form any bands after The Burgundy Runn?

DS: Oh sure, we all did. Doss and Maynard moved to Los Angeles and went through a number of groups. Maynard moved back to New Mexico and continued on. He started a big music store in 'old town' here back in the ‘70’'s. (As a matter of fact, I bought a Gibson-335 and a Mossman acoustic from him). He finally got a degree in music, and also worked as a pipe organ technician while going through school. He moved out of town someplace about 15-20 years ago.

Doss stayed in L.A., playing and writing songs. He finally had to get a real job and went to work for UPS. He stayed put until about a year ago when he and his wife and daughter up and moved to the "Bluegrass State". (He thinks he can make more money betting on the horses than in music). But he still composes.

Goodnow got his degree in "Hjfdjsukgjhsdyrhel Physics" and works as a rocket-scientist at Sandia National Lab's...no kidding.

I joined the New Mexico Air National Guard so I could continue to alternate school and performing, but the N.M.A.N.G. was called to active duty when the U.S.S. Pueblo was captured by the North Koreans. Guess where they sent us? Yep…Viet Nam. After a year in Viet Nam, I went to L.A. and joined an all 'original material' band that a friend of mine, Zack Head, had started. Zack had played guitar and sang lead vocals in another popular New Mexico band, the The Morticians. I must have played in bands or as a duo with Zack, off and on for the next six years. The last group I was in was with another Mortician band member, guitarist Stan Hirsch. Stan developed into a really first rate guitarist and I played bass and sang lead in a blues band he formed, TunaBurger and the FryBoyz. That was 25 years ago. Stan still plays the blues though, here and in Europe.

60s: What keeps you busy today?

DS: Well, my main interest has always been jazz and classical music. I got interested in early music back in the early ‘70s and built a harpsichord, because I couldn't afford one then, and I really fell in love with the construction aspect. That sparked an interest in pianos, so I enrolled at Western Iowa Tech. to learn piano technology. There I also met my future wife. After graduation, we worked in a piano rebuilding shop for about three years, and then began our own business, where we still are today. I also worked as a concert technician for Steinway for ten years...along with our own ventures.

My musical performing these days has mainly been with barbershop quartets and choruses. I have always loved close vocal harmony, as I said before, and a friend of mine dragged me, kicking and screaming, to a barbershop meeting about twenty years ago. Well, I fell in love with the sound and effect of harmony that was so closely and evenly matched. I jumped into it big time and before I knew it, was “barbershopping” about five nights a week! You can't believe how difficult it is to make that quality barbershop sound. I could write a book on the subject. I've sung in a number of quartets over the years, and competed at the international level four times with the chorus. Believe me, if you love harmony and ever get a chance to attend an international contest, by all means go! You'll never hear or see anything like it anywhere!

60s: How do you best summarize your experiences with The Burgundy Runn?

Ds: Hmmmm…Good times, Good friends...and playing music that we loved with all the exuberance and expectations of youth.

One final note. When I was approached about this interview I really wasn't looking forward to it at all. But, as I've thought about those days, I've got to admit, its been a lot of fun! I haven't thought about those times this much since they happened. I even pulled out the old 45 and listened to that %#&@ again...and you know what? I thought, "I'm gonna unpack my Strat and put that @%# damn lead track back on ‘Stop!’". But, then I thought, Naaaaa!

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