Peter Wheat & The Breadmen

Barry Carlos has truly done it all. Starting as an original member of The NightCaps, Carlos quickly realized the impact British Invasion groups were having on hundreds of teen combos in the East Bay area, and he capitalized by forming one of the area’s most popular rock bands, Peter Wheat & The Breadmen. From there, he managed other popular East Bay bands, and then helped form a record label to record them. Along with Bill Quarry, Carlos is certainly one of the most important figures from the entire ‘60’s West Coast rock and roll scene.

An Interview with Barry Carlos

60sgaragebands.com (60s): How did you first get interested in music?

Barry Carlos (BC): Well, I guess it all started in the early fifties. I was born in 1943 and raised in Oakland by my grandparents. My grandmother (who I will henceforth refer to as my Mom) was one hip lady. She loved all forms of music and I remember as a little boy that there was always music playing on the radio or emanating out from the Victrola (for younger readers, that was a record player; for very young readers it was like an iPod). She just loved a group named Red Nichols and The Five Pennies that were popular in the ‘40's and early ‘50's. I do believe that I began tapping my toes very early on...like against the bars of my crib.

The soonest that my mom could get me into playing an instrument was in the fourth grade at Whittier Elementary. Mr. Hackett, the district music teacher, handed me a clarinet and firmly said, “blow”. Now I was thinking more like the bang-bang-banging from a pair of drumsticks. Well, in those days you did not argue with the teacher, so home I went with my ugly silver metal clarinet tucked into an even uglier beat up case. After many squeaks and squawks I finally managed to do merciful justice to “Twinkle Twinkle Little Star”.

A couple of years later my mom took me on a trip that included New Orleans. I loved the sound and excitement of Dixieland music. I was intrigued that four or five guys could all be playing something different at the same time, yet it still sounded all together. Then there was the beat; yeah…I was for sure taping my toes at that point. Then in 1955, The Benny Goodman Story came out. I remember myself jumping up from my seat in the theater as all the kids in the movie suddenly went crazy when Benny and the boys rose up on the movable stage, playing "Bugle Call Rag". That was it for me; it was all about the beat from (that point) forward.

We lived in a very amiable white middle class neighborhood. Contrary to many of the other parents in town, my mom allowed me to listen to the black (or colored as black people where know back then. I was never, never, never allowed to say the 'N' word) radio stations such as KDIA or KSAN. They had DJ's like Jumpin' George and Bouncin' Bill who played music that really touched me. These DJ's were actually white guys but sounded just like hip black dudes. Well, soon my mom took me downtown to Best Music and bought me my first very own album. It was Here's Little Richard. I looked at my clarinet, looked at the picture of Little Richard’s band and knew that soon, the "licorice-stick" would have to stand down in favor of a bright gold Selmer Tenor.

60s: The NightCaps actually formed prior to the "garage band explosion." What was your impetus for starting a band before "Beatlemania" officially hit?

BC: The incentive for me was very simple - I loved the music and the joy it seemed to bring others! I was too young to have money or even fame act as an impetus at that time. The NightCaps formed in 1957 during my sophomore year at Oakland's Fremont High School. The initial test of that love came shortly after Bob Fox, Jerry Anderson, Bob Ruggiero, Marvin Hoag and I formed the band and began rehearsing in preparation for the school’s annual talent show. Somehow, the powers allowed us in. This was a pretty big deal because most adults at that time really did not like rock n' roll. Then again, neither did the members of the schools hot jazz band, which also played the show. They went on before us, did their usual polished set and received a good ovation. They remained in their seats, which were located just below the stage, and I could see them snickering to each other after we were introduced, surely thinking to themselves that we were going to completely embarrass ourselves. I was so nervous! Well…when we were about half way through our song, which I believe was “Johnny B. Goode”, the kids went crazy, applauding, screaming and wildly jumping around. I looked down into the orchestra pit and saw a lot of mummified egg on the faces of the members of the sophisticated jazz band. I had my “Benny Goodman” moment and was eager and determined to give it my all.

60s: How did you come up with the Peter Wheat & The Breadmen name (aprons and all)?

BC: After a fun and profitable seven year run as The NightCaps, we decided it was time for a name change to better fit in with the changing tide of the music scene. We gathered after a rehearsal one evening for the sole purpose of choosing a new name. Everybody threw out ideas but no name came forward that really grabbed us. I recall saying, “How about something that has to do with money, like dough or bread”. Bob Fox instantaneously blurted out with, “How about ‘Peter Wheat and the Breadmen'?” (For those who don't know… Peter Wheat was a bread company that delivered bread to your home in brightly painted trucks). We all fell to the floor in laughter. When we finally regained our composure, we decided to test market the name.

I went to Fremont's brand new UAW hall and asked if we could rent it for a dance. They agreed and we quickly had posters and handbills printed. We intentionally did not mention that Peter Wheat was the new name for The NightCaps, as we wanted to find out if the name had sufficient drawing power on its own. We passed out flyers at the Fremont Hub to anyone who would take one. Almost everyone laughed after reading the name. So did we…all the way to the bank! We played to a jam-packed hall and suddenly…Peter Wheat and The Breadmen were off and running. Every DJ on the radio put his spin on the name, such as, “I just heard that Peter Wheat and The Breadmen are really rolling in the dough.” Corny as it was, it kept Peter Wheat’s name constantly riding the airwaves.

Oh yeah…the aprons. I don't remember whose idea that was. When we hired The Tarantels to assume The Peter Wheat name, they wore them for a while but soon pleaded with me to lose the aprons. After showing me their idea of dress, I agreed with them and the aprons were hung up forever. (Hmmmmm…I wonder where those aprons are now? Probably for sale somewhere on eBay.)

60s: Once you decided to defer the Peter Wheat & The Breadmen name to The Tarantels, what became of the other members of The Nightcaps? Did they continue under a different name?

BC: Bob Ruggiero, Loren Major (who replaced Jerry Anderson after he lost his long battle with Hoskins disease) and I formed Go-Teen Productions and BLB Promotions, which managed the new Peter Wheat along with several other bands. Marvin Hoag stepped out of the business for a while then rejoined with me as one of the owners of Baytown Records. He also served as our recording engineer. Bob Fox formed a group called The Chimney Sweeps. I believe they have a recording on one of the Nuggets or Pebbles albums.

60s: How long were The Nightcaps/Breadmen together before you decided to transform The Tarantels into Peter Wheat & The Breadmen?

BC: Eight years. We had two records released; the first one was an instrumental I wrote titled “Mirage” and the second was “Don't You Know” b/w ‘”Are You Running Away”, two songs written to feature Bob Fox, our lead singer. It was released on the Amber label.

Many of the NightCaps recordings are locked away inside the Music City Records vault that is secretly hidden somewhere in Ray Dobard's fortress. Ray had a big hit on his label in the ‘50's titled “WPLJ” by The Four Deuces. After apparently hearing us several times, he approached us with a record deal. After completing several recordings, I asked Ray when a record would be released. He just flashed a big smile and said, “It’s coming out, baby.” I am sure that everyone who recorded for Music City heard that little ditty.

After recording many original songs without any release action on Ray's part, I pulled the group out of the deal. This young and inexperienced kid finally realized that Ray's big smile and iconic phrase really meant, “Ain’t nothing coming out, baby!” We were not the only ones who were treated to the Ray Dobard Experience. Through the years, there have been many stories of Ray's antics. It is a real shame though, for I am sure that there are reels and reels of recordings, especially of extremely talented black artists from all over the East Bay, that are just collecting dust or deteriorating away from time and neglect.

Alec Palao, Ace Records U.K. super re-issue producer and historian, recently told me that he tried repeatedly to convince Ray Dobard to let him do something with the material he recorded. Ray refused all the way to his passing. Alec has since contacted Ray’s daughter with an offer but as of yet…no deal.

We made it though that experience intact and actually had only one personnel change during the entire time together. Jerry Anderson's passing was a huge loss to all of us. He was a great lead guitarist and if he had lived longer, I am sure that he would have become one of rock’s greatest players.

60s: What was it about The Tarantels that made you think they'd fit the shoes for the type of group you were looking for?

BC: I first saw them at one of Bill Quarry’s Teens n’ Twenties dances at the Rollerena. The very first thing that they had going for them was that they had a keyboardist. That was a definite requirement. Secondly, as time went on, they were not afraid to test their creativity by exploring innovative chord changes on new original material or embark on complicated arrangements of cover tunes that I arranged for them. However, the most important attraction was that they looked and sounded like they were having fun. I have never regretted choosing Roger Kennedy, Bob Birdwell, Barry Houk, Terry Riesman, Chuck Tedford and later Dale Radcliff to be the personnel that made up the revised Peter Wheat and The Breadmen. They always cooperated with me and gave their fans a great performance every time they stepped onto the stage.

60s: Peter Wheat & The Breadmen recorded in 1966 on the Amber label. Do you recall the circumstances leading to the recording of the "All The Time" B/w "Baby What's New" 45?

BC: I think the sole purpose of going into the studio and cutting that 45 was to have something of theirs to place on the air up in the Santa Rosa area and later in Oakland to support their appearance at the Paul Revere and The Raiders concerts.

While we diligently worked to develop a hard driving and innovative live show, we were still a ways off from having the quantity and quality of original material I felt we needed to put out a first class album that would satisfy the expectations of their fans.

60s: What type of gigs were you able to land for Peter Wheat & The Breadmen? How popular did they become?

BC: Just about every type of gig a band could play. They appeared at all the dance spots - colleges, high schools. They opened concerts for many of the top selling acts of the day such as Buffalo Springfield, Them with Van Morrison (a couple of times), Love, The Grass Roots, The Turtles, The Byrds, Paul Revere and The Raiders and many more.

They did a commercial for PSA airlines (if anyone has a copy of this, please contact me). They also received worldwide attention and appeared in the headlines for about two weeks straight when Roger Kennedy (lead singer/guitar) and Bob Birdwel (bass) refused to cut their hair in order to return to school after the summer break. That is another story in itself.

60s: Is it true that Peter Wheat & The Breadmen were scheduled to perform with The Beatles at the Candlestick performance? If so, what happened that cancelled this out?

BC: Yes, it is true. It was a conflict between two Musician's Unions: Local 6, where Candlestick is located, and Local 510 San Leandro, where Peter Wheat held membership. Local 6 insisted that one of their bands be in the concert or no one from any other Bay Area local could be. Peter Wheat had previously done a few shows and benefit concerts for KYA, who presented the Beatles Candlestick concert. Everyone but the two rival locals tried very hard to resolve the unending conflict. What a story it would have been to share with the grandkids but I guess it just wasn't meant to be.

60s: You also managed The Immediate Family and The Canadian Fuzz. What are your recollections of these groups?

BC: The Immediate Family was a very talented act. They were supported and recommended by famed Oakland vocal coach, Judy Davis. I was so busy with Peter Wheat that I really could not give them the attention they deserved and we mutually agreed that they should move on to someone who could give them the support that they needed.

The Canadian Fuzz was the brainchild of Go-Teen Productions and BLB Promotions partner Bob Ruggiero. He conceived the image - the Canadian Mounties outfits - and pretty much handled their affairs. Again, my attention to Peter Wheat limited the amount of time I could spend on their promotion.

60s: What other bands did you manage?

BC: Many groups came through our offices, however, I can't really remember if we seriously took on more than the ones mentioned earlier. I only managed The NightCaps, Peter Wheat and The Immediate Family in the ‘60's. Throughout the entire ‘70's I managed, produced and played in Lexington.

In the late ‘60's I was asked by Mimi and Doc to manage Tower of Power. However, my commitment at that time focused on building up Baytown Records and I both respectively and regrettably had to decline. They went on to great success and I am so happy for them. We were fortunate to have Towers’ horns on many sessions at Baytown. In fact, Mimi and Doc choose the name, “Tower of Power” out of a book of names conceived by one of the Baytown partners and super lyrist Oscar Hefner.

60s: Whose idea was it to transform Peter Wheat & The Breadmen from a British Invasion band to a horn group?

BC: Mine… It was a big mistake!

60s: How long did the band remain together after converting to this "horn phase"?

BC: About a minute. No…thirty seconds. The mixing of a raw rock group with a couple of school trained and disciplined horn people just didn’t jell - at least in this situation. My idea was to bring in a horn section that thought like rockers. However, the guys that I recruited were just too disciplined to let go and rock out. It was a big mistake…and my error. The idea did finally come together a few years later with the inception of Lexington.

60s: What year and why did Peter Wheat & The Breadmen break up?

BC: I think it was early in 1967. The reason? I’m sure that there were many; however, after all the years I can’t seem to pin down any particular one. It was indeed…a wildly wonderful ride! Nevertheless, the time had come for everyone to get off the train, depart the station and explore new possibilities.

60s: And you formed Baytown Records in 1968?

BC: I believe it was in the spring of 1968. Five people came together to build a recording studio and label for five different reasons. Oscar Hefner wanted an outlet for his lyrics, Marvin Hoag wanted to be a recording engineer and Bill Freitas wanted to put a melody line to Oscar’s lyrics. I really do not remember why Sandy invested but she was a real sweetheart and there everyday doing whatever she could to support the studio. My interest was to discover and development new talent, produce them and hopefully have the label release hit records.

60s: Which bands did you record on the label? How many singles did the label release?

BC: If I remember correctly, only three were entirely produced by Baytown. Let’s see… Our first release was “Soul on Ice”. Oscar was inspired to write the lyrics for the A-Side by Eldridge Cleaver’s best-selling book of the same name. The record says that R. Nichols was Oscar’s writing partner but for some reason I don’t remember who this person is. I did the arrangement and produced the record. I was fortunate to get several members of The Vandells to initiate a recipe for success by laying down a driving rhythm track. Next, I asked Mimi and Doc of Tower of Power to arrange a horn track to match the intensity of the basic track. As always, they went beyond the expected. The final musical touch was provided by Gary Raffanelli’s powerful Hammond B3 solo. To complete and further energize the entire effort, Bobby Watkins was brought in to handle the vocals.

We initially pressed 500 copies and I immediately went over to San Francisco to ask the premier distribution company if they would pick it up. The main man (I won’t mention his name) loved the record and instead of handling the distribution, he wanted to buy the whole project for $5000.00. After meeting with all my partners, it was decided not to take the deal. When I delivered the news to the unnamed individual, he immediately informed me that unless we sold it to him he would see to it that it never received any airplay. If anyone wonders if he carried out his threat, I can only say, has anyone ever heard the record?

I was informed recently that Oscar gave licensing rights for “Soul on Ice” to a record company in the U.K. Good for him - although I wish he would have given Alec Palao the rights.

Our second release was titled “The Meat Rack” b/w “Minnie Skirt Minnie.” One night I was watching Van Amberg, the anchor for the Channel 7 evening news and he was talking about how teenagers were flocking to San Francisco in groves. He further stated that so many of the girls ran out of whatever money they brought with them and were ending up on “The Meat Rack”. (This was a street term for prostitution.) He then read a short poem that he had written on the subject.

I contacted him the next day and suggested that we put music to what he had written. He liked the idea and we struck a deal to release a 45. I used most of the same personnel as I did for “Soul on Ice” but with one exception. After auditioning several singers, newcomer Arthur Ratcliff was chosen to fill the role.

After listening to the finished project, I felt that both the A and B sides demanded background vocalists. Arthur came to the rescue and told me about three girls he knew from church that would be perfect. I called them and they said that they would do the session for fifty bucks. They informed me that I would have to pick them up because they had no means of transportation to Hayward. On the evening of the session, I went to Oakland, drove down 75th Avenue and stopped in front of their parents’ house. When I stepped out of my car, I suddenly heard, BAM BAM BAM. That’s right…gunshots. I thought to myself, “Oh Boy!” I hurried up the steps and before I reached the top, they were coming out the door.

Once in the studio they listened to the tracks, huddled together for a while and then announced that they were ready to record. Their talent from the very moment they began to sing blew me away. When the first take finished I rushed out of the control booth, walked into the studio and offered them a record deal right then and there. They graciously smiled but informed me that they were working with a producer in “the city” and had struck a preliminary deal with him. Every time I hear The Pointer Sisters sing, I smile and remember that incredible evening.

The third release was “My Momma Was a Bottom Land Lilly,” with lyrics by Oscar Hefner. Roger Campbell sang the lead and played the piano. We used the The Gates of Eden to lay down the basic tracks and U.K. producer Michael Mitchell and I produced the record. The song was in the spirit of a typical John Fogerty/CCR recording.

Baytown had many other releases; however most of them were groups or individuals who bought recording time and then produced their own material. Some examples were: The Crystal Garden, Mark Edlin, Roger Campbell, The Vandells and The Gates of Eden. There were other individuals and groups - both large and small - from gospel to Latin, folk and country - however, I can’t recall their names.

60s: Do you have any vintage live recordings, or unreleased tracks by the "garage band" groups that you recorded?

BC: There were two live recordings that originated from the studios of Baytown Records. One was an all night one-take session that featured Roger Campbell. He was a former member of Mitch Ryder and The Detroit Wheels. He wrote all the material, sang and played the keyboards. I assembled some of the finest musicians for this session. I feel very privileged that I produced this extremely talented individual. Years later, I adapted some of his material to fit into Lexington’s play list. Two of his songs, “A Sense of Wonder” and “The World Turns Round” were included in Lexington’s first album, The Execution of Sir Henry Hardwhistle.

The other live recording comes out of a special one-hour remote broadcast from the Baytown Store. An individual from Radio Station KSAN came to Baytown, liked what he heard and saw and convinced the station’s management to present the remote. If I remember correctly, the broadcast occurred on a Saturday evening. We had a few groups perform live and a couple of DJs conducted some interviews with Baytown personnel.

60s: How long did the label operate?

BC: Three Years. Bill, Marvin, Sandy, Mike Mitchell, Roger Campbell and I left the company in the summer of 1970. I believe Oscar, the lone remaining owner, operated the studio and store for approximately one more year.

60s: Did any of the bands you were involved with make any local TV appearances?

BC: Yes. The NightCaps first appeared on a Channel 2 variety show called Hollywood Talent Roundup. I think the year was 1958. Back in those days, TV Techs only cared about producing a good picture. Sound was not that important to them, so hence they always put just one mic in front of the singer. When we started to play at the rehearsal, the director came running out of the control room, yelling something I would hear so many, many times during my playing years: “You gotta’ turn down!”

The NightCaps’ second televised performance was on The Ben Alexander Show, again on Channel 2. Videotape had come into existence so the show was taped a few days before airing, and we were able to see ourselves on TV for the first time. Home video equipment had not been invented yet so there was no way of getting a visual off the TV set.

Our third appearance came about after we won Sonoma County Fair’s Battle of the Bands. One of the prizes was a guest appearance on Channel 5’s Dick Stewart’s Dance Party.

Our fourth and final appearance was on Channel 11’s Ted Randle’s Record Hop.

Peter Wheat’s TV run all came about from the nightly coverage they received for about two weeks when Roger and Bob got kicked out of school for not cutting their hair. As their summer vacation was nearing an end I ask Bob and Roger to leave their hair long, for I was sure they would be told to go home and get it cut. I asked them to get in touch with me at my office immediately after getting kicked out.

When they did, I called Joyce Canright, our publicist, and asked her to call the local newspaper. She did her usual great job and before you know it, she called me from Kennedy High and said that I had better get down there…right now! When I reached the school, I was in shock at the number of TV cameras and reporters who had gathered at the scene. I walked over, introduced myself to a reporter from Newsweek and asked, “Why is this story such a big deal? I thought I could just pick up a little local publicity.” He glanced off his notebook, smiled as he looked at me and said, “Every year there is a ‘return to school’ story that gets the big share of play. Well buddy…You’re it!"

The next morning Peter Wheat was pictured and headlined on the San Francisco Chronicles’ front page as well as just about every other paper. The story ran for about two weeks until we finally had to give in due to the fact that Roger and Bob were under age and the state of California said they had to return to school or they could not continue to perform. I heard from kids and even adults from all over the world encouraging us not to give in. It was a real hoot!

Lexington appeared locally on Cecil Williams’ television show on Channel 4.

60s: What about today? What keeps you busy?

BC: After Lexington’s ten year run I began my quest for a better “Spiritual understanding” of myself. It continues to be a wonderful journey. When I “officially” left the music scene in 1980 I started a decorating and design company that creates storefronts and provides other special effects painting and concepts. In 1994 I looked up and found Darlene, my childhood sweetheart. We have been happily married now for eleven years. Jeff Micheli, my long time friend from Lexington (he played trumpet), joined with me to write our first novel in 1998. It is a speculative fiction story titled Missing, subtitled Kidnapping the Image of God. If any of your readers listen to Coast to Coast with George Noory or Art Bell I am sure you are going to like this book! It is scheduled for release in the fall of this year or the early part of 2007.

60s: How do you best summarize your experiences with Peter Wheat & The Breadmen?

BC: As I said before… Peter Wheat was a great ride. However, I should say…Peter Wheat is a great ride. With the renewed interest in the ‘60’s garage bands stemming from websites like yours, Bruce Tashler’s new book and Alec Palao’s forth coming Ace Records CD, Peter Wheat is known and remembered the world over. I am very grateful to the fans, both old and new, for their love and attention. It is very gratifying.

The members of Peter Wheat and I are in close communication as we prepare to soon release the Official Peter Wheat and The Breadmen web site onto the Internet. I am only sorry that Roger Kennedy is no longer with us to in share in the recognition that the group has and is receiving. I guess after 40 years, the most satisfying thing that can be said comes in words from an email I recently received from Peter Wheat bass man, Bob Birdwell: “You know Barry; I work for a company of about 700 people. I work directly for the President, and I am considered one of the top executives here... but I'm still known by many of the employees as “the guy from Peter Wheat & The Breadmen!”

Thanks for your great website and all the effort that you give in bringing to light the stories of the American Garage Band…You are indeed appreciated and loved.

"Copyrighted and originally printed on www.60sgaragebands.com by Mike Dugo".
"Listen live, online to their music at Beyond The Beat Generation, 60's garage and psychedelia".